Trigger alert: this is about God.

Nice episode Alan.

Years ago when I lived in Spain in my late twenties, I became friends with another Irish expat called Tom, who used to go to Mass every Sunday.

One day, I said to him, “Tom, is there a God?” And Tom replied, “kinda”.
I liked that, it always makes me chuckle when I remember it. 

I was astounded to attend a huge cathedral in Dublin on a Sunday (St. Patrick's) to find it 90% empty. 

That is not uncommon in Ireland these days.
The Church overplayed its hand here for many decades and this is the hangover.
Things are still coming out and the obfuscation, avoidance, and deflection continues.

It may swing back somewhat in the future and find a more balanced equilibrium but it could take some time (decades).

Edited November 21, 20232 yr by patrickdaly

Alan and all,

I won't be drawn into your question ("Is there a God?") but I'm fascinated by two related, but different, questions: Who believes in (a) God? and Why are (some/most) churches almost empty? 

Here's the answer, up to our recent census in 2021, for Australia at least: 

This covers my lifetime almost exactly, and bears out what I observe in people around me. When I started primary school (1970) most people in Australia were Christian. Today, plenty of people are avowedly non-believers, and a small fraction (8%) of Christians (who are 43% of the population) attend church regularly - so that's about 3% of the population.

In particular, note the angle of both curves in the last 10 years - the trend away from belief is accelerating. 

Here's a really good (if slightly dated - 2013) infographic summarising market research on HOW churches are perceived in Australia which, again, goes some of the way to explaining the empty cathedrals. 

Andrew

In Gallup polls in the US, 81% of people admit to believing in God. This was 98% in the 50s and 60s. About 66% claim to attend a church of some kind at least once a year and "never attend" was reported by 33%. (By the way, I also attended a very empty St. Mary's Cathedral in Sydney.)

All of this means nothing about whether there is a God. What it does reflect is an increasingly secular and existential society where people feel free to do whatever the hell suits them. During the past decades we've seen huge rises in drugs, non-intact families, children born out of wedlock, sexual harassment by people in power,  financial fraud, greed, and so forth. We've also seen the crimes of the church exposed. We've come to understand that these are people running the churches, subject to the frailties of the species, not God running the churches. You don't have to be in an edifice or certain group to pray, to act well, to believe in God. But we all know that communities can help tremendously. 

There are currently 2.2 billion self-described Christians in the world, over 30% of the population, and 1.5 billion Muslims (23%), and a billion Hindus (15%). 

With the trend away from what the chart labels "religious affiliation" we also have clear trends away from civility, kindness, comity, and compromise. We have polarization and hatred. Are they directly related or coincidental? You can decide. 

My observations are that people think they're a hell of a lot smarter than they are, that hubris is huge, believing we can control the world around us, and that self-deception is toxic, pretending that we understand the universe. People flocked to churches during the pandemic, in reality or in virtuality. People mock others who "send their prayers" as being insufficient and not enough.

But sometimes that's all we have. 

 

NYT this morning on the topic of Andrew's chart: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/opinion/religion-nones-gen-z.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20231125&instance_id=108626&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=25122229&segment_id=150999&user_id=bf82992d5dc6ed896c33246de634ed21 The author's point is that it's part of a larger distrust by younger generations of all institutions.

Very interesting article, Alan, especially the Jenga-block metaphor.

It reminds me of a friend in first year university who was a devout Christian. She and I would spend time between classes debating belief, and Christianity specifically. In the end, she cut off ties with me, at her pastor's recommendation. His words: "Stop talking to him. He has nothing to lose. You have everything to lose". 

Andrew

I think we've all seen extremes. Religion does not obviate the need for rationality. In the Catholic liturgy there's (my favorite) line, "the mystery of our faith." It takes confidence to admit to the unknown and mystery, and we are surrounded by mystery in our lives (often trying to pretend to understand it with hubris).

When you don't want to hear opposing views you're no longer an advocate, you're a zealot. 

3 hours ago, Alan Weiss said:

" It takes confidence to admit to the unknown and mystery, and we are surrounded by mystery in our lives (often trying to pretend to understand it with hubris).

I concur very much with this. Even from a scientific, completely non-religious perspective, the nature of reality is totally mysterious. 

If people think they understand the universe, then they need to be medicated. 

The line 'the mystery of our faith' sums it up. The subject of the faith is mysterious enough. Even faith itself is a mysterious concept, because it attaches a sense of reality to something ineffable.

Andrew

As we do with the universe every day. 

But the subject itself isn't mysterious in terms of faith. Since time immemorial, people have worshipped gods of one stripe or another. How else to deal with the world around them?  You can make a case that all these gods are conceived to allow people to live each day without dread and with some degree of "safety." But one can also make the case that the universe is not random, there is no such thing as infinity nor a "big bang," and there is a supernatural (divine) causality.

I don't believe we emerged from acidic polymers, or random molecules. I'd be much more willing to believe that life was deposited here by extraterrestrial actions. But if so, what are their origins?

If you're willing to have a conversation here about this, Alan, I have some further questions about your remarks:

13 hours ago, Alan Weiss said:

But the subject itself isn't mysterious in terms of faith. Since time immemorial, people have worshipped gods of one stripe or another. How else to deal with the world around them?  You can make a case that all these gods are conceived to allow people to live each day without dread and with some degree of "safety." But one can also make the case that the universe is not random, there is no such thing as infinity nor a "big bang," and there is a supernatural (divine) causality.

I don't believe we emerged from acidic polymers, or random molecules. I'd be much more willing to believe that life was deposited here by extraterrestrial actions. But if so, what are their origins?

Whether you want to respond as 'one can make a case', or 'I believe', is fine either way, but I'm interested to hear from you on:

a) Could the idea of causality itself be a human construct? Or does it require a 'god' figure? And, if it does, what 'drives' the creator's decisions? 

b) You use the word 'random' twice. Is there a mechanism between (or other than) 'random' and 'intended'? 

Andrew

 

A) Causality is human discovery. If I am drunk and drive into a tree, there's clearly a cause. Math is not a human construct, it's a discovery. Human sentience, which is what I think you're talking about, doesn't require a god figure, but its source does (the mysteries of the human brain). I do not believe we are merely the products of evolution in a mechanistic universe (in which we don't have any idea about the mechanisms). The creator may or may not be making decisions, and if the creator is, the rationale is probably well beyond our comprehension. Don't you ever think about the universe resembling an atom, and we're infinitesimal creatures on a microscopic orrery?

b) Fortuitous or accidental. This is the theory of the infinite number of monkeys, which I assume you're familiar with. It explains both Hitler and Elon Musk.

Hi Andrew,

I know you didn't ask me, but I can recommend the writings of Edward Feser, a Catholic, Thomist scholar. His book The Last Superstition presents arguments about causality and how they relate to claims about God. I'm not personally convinced, but as far as I know these are the best arguments about causality and God.

Rich